Comments on: Hawaii trip unlikely for this summer http://adventuresofgreg.com/blog/2010/05/12/hawaii-trip-unlikely-for-this-summer/ human power rocks. enjoy the ride. Fri, 03 Jun 2011 00:57:13 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Allen http://adventuresofgreg.com/blog/2010/05/12/hawaii-trip-unlikely-for-this-summer/comment-page-1/#comment-25107 Allen Mon, 21 Jun 2010 15:41:54 +0000 http://adventuresofgreg.com/blog/?p=3268#comment-25107 Hello Greg, First, if you make the decision to abandon this project, then you must know that you are not, in any way, letting down those people who who have supported you in this venture. Whatever you decide will be informed ultimately by your need to survive and, regardless of financial or moral support provided by all who follow your progress, your safety trumps everything. Secondly, I am not convinced that any modifications to this craft will ever be sufficient to get you safely to Hawaii. I was at your trials on Glenmore Reservoir in Calgary and my first thought was the incredible amount of freeboard of the boat. Increasing ballast, movable or not, which may correct the problem of the boat lying abeam when drifting, will have a negative effect on the boats' performance by increasing its' wetted surface. Thirdly, any keel boat will roll wildly when crontonted with wind and waves; sailboats, with sails down, also roll wildly when in similar conditions. With sails raised, the boat "stiffens" considerably. To exacerbate the issue with the roll, your boat has a very narow beam causing the rate of the roll to be very quick and unsettling. I honestly do not think that you could survive the motion, repeated knockdowns not withstanding, for the duration of the trip. Fourthly, the cost of a redesign and rebuild would seem to be an untenable proposition at this point. Your safety is paramount; rest assured knowing, and I'm only guessing on this one, that every single individual who is aware of your planned crossing to Hawaii, would rather see you survive to peddle another day, than to see you cast off into such uncertainty. You have achieved more than most can scarcely imagine. Perhaps that's where this project should be relegated- to the imaginings of all, wondering what it would be like to peddle to Hawaii. All the best. Allen Hello Greg,

First, if you make the decision to abandon this project, then you must know that you are not, in any way, letting down those people who who have supported you in this venture. Whatever you decide will be informed ultimately by your need to survive and, regardless of financial or moral support provided by all who follow your progress, your safety trumps everything.

Secondly, I am not convinced that any modifications to this craft will ever be sufficient to get you safely to Hawaii. I was at your trials on Glenmore Reservoir in Calgary and my first thought was the incredible amount of freeboard of the boat. Increasing ballast, movable or not, which may correct the problem of the boat lying abeam when drifting, will have a negative effect on the boats’ performance by increasing its’ wetted surface.

Thirdly, any keel boat will roll wildly when crontonted with wind and waves; sailboats, with sails down, also roll wildly when in similar conditions. With sails raised, the boat “stiffens” considerably. To exacerbate the issue with the roll, your boat has a very narow beam causing the rate of the roll to be very quick and unsettling. I honestly do not think that you could survive the motion, repeated knockdowns not withstanding, for the duration of the trip.

Fourthly, the cost of a redesign and rebuild would seem to be an untenable proposition at this point. Your safety is paramount; rest assured knowing, and I’m only guessing on this one, that every single individual who is aware of your planned crossing to Hawaii, would rather see you survive to peddle another day, than to see you cast off into such uncertainty.

You have achieved more than most can scarcely imagine. Perhaps that’s where this project should be relegated- to the imaginings of all, wondering what it would be like to peddle to Hawaii.

All the best.

Allen

]]> By: Charlie http://adventuresofgreg.com/blog/2010/05/12/hawaii-trip-unlikely-for-this-summer/comment-page-1/#comment-25050 Charlie Thu, 03 Jun 2010 06:27:05 +0000 http://adventuresofgreg.com/blog/?p=3268#comment-25050 On the rolling, and the desired default downwind orientation, I'm drawn to the idea of a fin keel. Its location, length and weight bulb would probably need a lot of trial and error. The stability (good) tradeoff of extra weight and wetted surface (bad) would seem well worth it. Your concerns re. batteries becoming inert & unmovable is very real. Good thinking, holding back till you're comfortable with all of it. Good luck, eh? On the rolling, and the desired default downwind orientation, I’m drawn to the idea of a fin keel. Its location, length and weight bulb would probably need a lot of trial and error. The stability (good) tradeoff of extra weight and wetted surface (bad) would seem well worth it. Your concerns re. batteries becoming inert & unmovable is very real. Good thinking, holding back till you’re comfortable with all of it. Good luck, eh?

]]> By: Charlie http://adventuresofgreg.com/blog/2010/05/12/hawaii-trip-unlikely-for-this-summer/comment-page-1/#comment-25049 Charlie Thu, 03 Jun 2010 06:26:06 +0000 http://adventuresofgreg.com/blog/?p=3268#comment-25049 On the rolling, and the desired default downwind orientation, I'm drawn to the idea of a fin keel. Its location, length and weight bulb would probably need a lot of trial and error. The stability (good) tradeoff of extra weight and wetted surface (bad) would seem well worth it. Also wondered about a narrow catamaran, but again would need some stability device. Your concerns re. batteries becoming inert & unmovable is very real. Good thinking, holding back till you're comfortable with all of it. Good luck, eh? On the rolling, and the desired default downwind orientation, I’m drawn to the idea of a fin keel. Its location, length and weight bulb would probably need a lot of trial and error. The stability (good) tradeoff of extra weight and wetted surface (bad) would seem well worth it. Also wondered about a narrow catamaran, but again would need some stability device. Your concerns re. batteries becoming inert & unmovable is very real. Good thinking, holding back till you’re comfortable with all of it. Good luck, eh?

]]> By: Mark http://adventuresofgreg.com/blog/2010/05/12/hawaii-trip-unlikely-for-this-summer/comment-page-1/#comment-25048 Mark Thu, 03 Jun 2010 02:30:39 +0000 http://adventuresofgreg.com/blog/?p=3268#comment-25048 Greg, Don't get discouraged, you have methodically solved the past issues one by one and this is no different. I suggest you look at Matt Layden's microcruiser designs for possible solutions to incorporate like his chine runners: http://www.microcruising.com/ Greg,
Don’t get discouraged, you have methodically solved the past issues one by one and this is no different. I suggest you look at Matt Layden’s microcruiser designs for possible solutions to incorporate like his chine runners:
http://www.microcruising.com/

]]> By: Ian http://adventuresofgreg.com/blog/2010/05/12/hawaii-trip-unlikely-for-this-summer/comment-page-1/#comment-25041 Ian Mon, 31 May 2010 10:15:39 +0000 http://adventuresofgreg.com/blog/?p=3268#comment-25041 Greg Despite the problems with your boat you still could do some limited ocean trips along the coast. Maybe a one or two week trip which would give you valuable experience under ocean conditions. With the time and effort you have put in it would be a waste not to take advantage of the summer. Maybe try the circumnavigation of Vancouver Island. Keep at it, one day you will get there. Ian Greg
Despite the problems with your boat you still could do some limited ocean trips along the coast. Maybe a one or two week trip which would give you valuable experience under ocean conditions. With the time and effort you have put in it would be a waste not to take advantage of the summer. Maybe try the circumnavigation of Vancouver Island.
Keep at it, one day you will get there.

Ian

]]> By: Tim http://adventuresofgreg.com/blog/2010/05/12/hawaii-trip-unlikely-for-this-summer/comment-page-1/#comment-25034 Tim Sat, 29 May 2010 00:35:27 +0000 http://adventuresofgreg.com/blog/?p=3268#comment-25034 Hi Greg, Seems you have a lot of support to do what you feel is best for you and your family. Just sending you my support here too. I think we both agree that it's all about the journey - goals are "journey creators." The work to get you this far is a remarkable journey on its own - the people you've met, things you've learned, the exercise of mind, body, courage, patience, humor, tear ducts, etc. Although a monumental challenge already, your greatest challenge might be a choice to delay or even cancel the trip altogether. Maybe you just want to move on to something else. I hope you feel an inner freedom to do what "feels" right to you. In doing so you will inspire even more, including myself. All the best! Tim Hi Greg,

Seems you have a lot of support to do what you feel is best for you and your family. Just sending you my support here too. I think we both agree that it’s all about the journey – goals are “journey creators.” The work to get you this far is a remarkable journey on its own – the people you’ve met, things you’ve learned, the exercise of mind, body, courage, patience, humor, tear ducts, etc. Although a monumental challenge already, your greatest challenge might be a choice to delay or even cancel the trip altogether. Maybe you just want to move on to something else. I hope you feel an inner freedom to do what “feels” right to you. In doing so you will inspire even more, including myself.

All the best!

Tim

]]> By: brisy http://adventuresofgreg.com/blog/2010/05/12/hawaii-trip-unlikely-for-this-summer/comment-page-1/#comment-25017 brisy Fri, 21 May 2010 07:30:42 +0000 http://adventuresofgreg.com/blog/?p=3268#comment-25017 Garrie L Hill on May 12, 2010 ,and Adrian on May 19, 2010 gave both nice analysis of the stuff , giving some more volume just above the flotation line could also ease the rolling problem as well as long narow keels under the hull could slow the move without adding weight.. you don't give the technical data of within weight etc.. ? for instance "institut pasteur" a french rowing boat ready to leave Callao heading to australia is nearly 600 kg Garrie L Hill on May 12, 2010 ,and Adrian on May 19, 2010 gave both nice analysis of the stuff , giving some more volume just above the flotation line could also ease the rolling problem as well as long narow keels under the hull could slow the move without adding weight.. you don’t give the technical data of within weight etc.. ? for instance “institut pasteur” a french rowing boat ready to leave Callao heading to australia is nearly 600 kg

]]> By: T http://adventuresofgreg.com/blog/2010/05/12/hawaii-trip-unlikely-for-this-summer/comment-page-1/#comment-25012 T Thu, 20 May 2010 23:10:17 +0000 http://adventuresofgreg.com/blog/?p=3268#comment-25012 Mabey some time away from the project at this point will give some new perspective and motivation.... Mabey some time away from the project at this point will give some new perspective and motivation….

]]> By: Adrian http://adventuresofgreg.com/blog/2010/05/12/hawaii-trip-unlikely-for-this-summer/comment-page-1/#comment-25005 Adrian Wed, 19 May 2010 22:02:16 +0000 http://adventuresofgreg.com/blog/?p=3268#comment-25005 Greg, Sorry to hear you're not going this summer. I hope you can find the support and energy to go next year. I think you should take a hard look at how longitudinal weight distribution affects WiTHiN in strong winds. Small sailboats and sailboards can be turned in circles by moving your weight longitudinally on the hull. I think with the amount of water and food you will be carrying for a trip to Hawaii, you can probably significantly change the boat's trim by moving a bunch of that weight to the front or back of the boat. On such a long, narrow hull, it would be far more effective and practical than moving weight laterally. In essence, having the bow in the water and stern out of the water moves your center of resistance way forward, in the same way that putting a little centerboard at the bow would. The easiest way to do this might be with water ballast: put a water tank in the bow and stern, with a hose connecting the tanks and a manual pump and check valves. When going upwind, transfer all your water to the front tank, and when going downwind, move it all to the aft tank. You could use your drinking water for this, although you might run out of trim capability as you drink the water, or use seawater, with the downside of adding more weight to the boat, but you can dump ballast and pick up more along the way. It sounds like you might want to avoid going south to the trades. Paraphrasing a guy who recently raced to Hawaii: once in the trades, the wind was mostly in the 20s, high was 32kts, low 16kts. Adrian Greg,

Sorry to hear you’re not going this summer. I hope you can find the support and energy to go next year.

I think you should take a hard look at how longitudinal weight distribution affects WiTHiN in strong winds. Small sailboats and sailboards can be turned in circles by moving your weight longitudinally on the hull. I think with the amount of water and food you will be carrying for a trip to Hawaii, you can probably significantly change the boat’s trim by moving a bunch of that weight to the front or back of the boat. On such a long, narrow hull, it would be far more effective and practical than moving weight laterally. In essence, having the bow in the water and stern out of the water moves your center of resistance way forward, in the same way that putting a little centerboard at the bow would.

The easiest way to do this might be with water ballast: put a water tank in the bow and stern, with a hose connecting the tanks and a manual pump and check valves. When going upwind, transfer all your water to the front tank, and when going downwind, move it all to the aft tank. You could use your drinking water for this, although you might run out of trim capability as you drink the water, or use seawater, with the downside of adding more weight to the boat, but you can dump ballast and pick up more along the way.

It sounds like you might want to avoid going south to the trades. Paraphrasing a guy who recently raced to Hawaii: once in the trades, the wind was mostly in the 20s, high was 32kts, low 16kts.

Adrian

]]> By: Bill Serjeant http://adventuresofgreg.com/blog/2010/05/12/hawaii-trip-unlikely-for-this-summer/comment-page-1/#comment-24977 Bill Serjeant Fri, 14 May 2010 21:02:11 +0000 http://adventuresofgreg.com/blog/?p=3268#comment-24977 I believe the solution to prevent the excessive rolling and provide stability is to add a conventional classic yacht keel, similar in configuration to those of model yachts, but ‘Within’ will also need two daggerboards, one forward and one aft. The daggerboards in addition to the rudder will control the steering, as well as the way the boat lays to her sea anchor or drogue. The internal structure of the hull will need to be beefed up to take the forces imposed by the keel. Some may see the keel and daggerboards as aids to ‘sailing’, but the Atlantic rower who came first in this year’s Woodvale Challenge Race had two daggerboards for the reasons mentioned above. He is credited with rowing the Atlantic, although his boat would have ‘sailed’ off the wind. The addition of a keel will enable Greg to stand up without fear of capsizing his boat, thus he will be able to deploy the sea anchor when the conditions warrant it. Yes, there will be more wetted surface, but the gains in stability and directional stability will off-set the increased water drag. Upward surf flanges either side of the bow, as per the ‘Cheers’ Proa of Follett, would help lift the bow when surfing downwind, to minimise the dipping of the bow. I believe the solution to prevent the excessive rolling and provide stability is to add a conventional classic yacht keel, similar in configuration to those of model yachts, but ‘Within’ will also need two daggerboards, one forward and one aft. The daggerboards in addition to the rudder will control the steering, as well as the way the boat lays to her sea anchor or drogue. The internal structure of the hull will need to be beefed up to take the forces imposed by the keel.
Some may see the keel and daggerboards as aids to ‘sailing’, but the Atlantic rower who came first in this year’s Woodvale Challenge Race had two daggerboards for the reasons mentioned above. He is credited with rowing the Atlantic, although his boat would have ‘sailed’ off the wind.
The addition of a keel will enable Greg to stand up without fear of capsizing his boat, thus he will be able to deploy the sea anchor when the conditions warrant it.
Yes, there will be more wetted surface, but the gains in stability and directional stability will off-set the increased water drag.
Upward surf flanges either side of the bow, as per the ‘Cheers’ Proa of Follett, would help lift the bow when surfing downwind, to minimise the dipping of the bow.

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